Curse

Konig Des Todes · Sep 13, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

This research is VERY long; do not start reading unless you have plenty of time on your hands

Author’s Note: This thread is not to claim the origin of the individual dungeons, but instead the origin of the structures within them.

The idea of this research came from a discussion where it is believed that the Seers were the creators of the Eye of the North. During said discussion, a fact was pointed out saying that, if the Seers had any structure, it would most likely be based on that fact. I am not here to say that the Seers are connected to that fact – which was the description for the Iron Mines of Moladune area – but instead expanding on that fact.

There is another known fact of the dungeon structures: The race which made these existed before humans came to Tyria – whether they did after humans showed, is unknown. This explains why the structures are underground. Many cases you see pillars or walls going into the rock. They were not built like this, but instead sunk into the group overtime and eventually were excavated by the Asura and the Dwarves (or in some cases, not excavated but were turned into cavern-like locations).

Here we have a note of a mysterious civilization that had a city created purely of Ice and Stone. This is believed to be linked to the Seers due to the proximity of the first Seer seen. This I’ll leave up to debate, I personally agree with said theory, but as I said, that is not the point of this article.

The first Ice and Stone structure seen in game

Now that we have the starting idea covered – that is, the city of Ice and Stone – I bring to you the next piece of evidence and the first structure or object made of ice and stone that is visible in the game: The Ice Pillar found in Ice Cliff Chasms.

As you can see in that picture, the statue’s base contains both ice and stone in the same shape.

This is also seen in the surrounding blocks as seen above.

Then, as you look up the center pillar, you see a creature covered or carved in ice. This ice is of a different texture than the lower ice. More of snow and ice – permafrost is even possible. One can make two deductions out of this: Different material was used to make a statue – perhaps a combination of the stone and the ice (thus making a permafrost-like material); or it is a creature who was captured by the makers of this ice and stone thus created a prison for it.

Enter the Dungeon

While looking along the entire surface, no more ice and stone structures are seen. It is possible that they eroded over time, or they met the same fate as Moladune.

However, if you take the search closer to the ground – or in fact underneath it – one can find more ice structures. I am sure all of you who have Guild Wars: Eye of the North you all know what I am talking about by now. That’s right: the Far Shiverpeaks Dungeons.

In these dungeons one can find mysterious and unexplained ice structures. These ice structures range from huge (clearly unnatural) blocks of ice that line the walls to diamond-shaped ice that either floats or are stuck into the ground. They even appear as small spires (above which are the floating diamond-shaped ice) and long bar-like pieces. Every dungeon one enters in the Far Shiverpeaks holds these. But, as the dungeons hold the same five or so large maps – and only show different portions of them – we cannot say all those dungeons have portions created by this mysterious race. So I shall not say that.

Dungeon Maps

There are four types of dungeon maps found in the Far Shiverpeaks dungeons – natural snow dungeons, and three non-natural snow dungeons.

Unfortunately, I cannot find the full maps of the dungeon maps, so I cannot show which ones are the natural, or the three non-natural snow dungeons. However, I can tell you that of the three unnatural snow dungeons, only two pertain to this instance. So instead of looking at the individual dungeons for where the structures are, let us look at the entirety of the ice and stone structure maps and the whole structure of said map. Thus we shall ignore location and purpose of the dungeons (along with enemies found within, blocked passageways, and the various objects – except for rare occasions which will be brought up later).

Ice Structures in the Dungeons

There are several structures of both stone and ice in these dungeons.

The first and most notable are the walls. These are shone in pure blocks of a dark bluish green ice (i.e., ice covering stone). These are also similar to the ground, which is an even darker bluish color – though the ground is not a flat surface like the walls, nor is it in blocks. The second pictures shows that there are also blocks of ice which are of a lighter blue color in different dungeons. This is most likely just plain ice, unlike the first picture which appears to be ice covering stone (as mentioned).

In the first of these two pictures, we see the same ice-blocks, but this time it’s different. They are covering bricks and are not completely ice. It is possible the other ice-blocks are the same, but the bricks are further. If this is the case, the structures were made of stone and ice, the stone being the main support, and the ice being the insulators of the walls.

In the second picture, we see even more of the bricks and something even more interesting: gargoyles. Though this is not the only location we see them in this dungeon. We shall come back to those in a bit. I direct your attention to the bricks themselves. Look familiar? If you played Factions, they should. Let me give you a better hint:

Yes, they are the same bricks (thus textures) as used in Kurzick structures; although these bricks are of a different color. The gargoyle is also seen throughout Ascalon (primarily the Catacombs). This will be covered more in depth later on.

Here we see the intricate crystal-like system of ice (or ice-like) designs that exist throughout the dungeons. Along with that, we see the all-too-common and just as equally mysterious face. Then we also see what the Asura Xapp says on such structures. Implying that the Norn created them – but that could be wrong!

Author’s Note: The pictures of the crystal-like ice designs are from two different dungeon maps (i.e., not repeated content compared to just each other)

Mid-creation Note: Leon has suggested that the darker colored ice structures could be jade or something of the like. This would still go along with the idea of “Ice and Stone Structures”.

We know, by location, that the walls and these intricate structures are connected. But, there is an issue. Where is the stone? Well, it is right next to the structures.

Outside the room with the largest amount of the aforementioned ice structures, we see a series of stone structures. First and most curious is the statue of Grenth – which is made out of stone. But that raises the question of why there? Well, hold on Mr. hasty. I will get to that later.

We then see the next easy to spot structure – and most common: the snake-wrapped pillars. These are most easily spotted in three locations in the Far Shiverpeaks: next to the Grenth statues, in the Battle Depths near Jalis, and in Jaga Morain in the wurm breeding ground. Both those in the Battle Depths and in Jaga Morain are all messed up and knocked over – though those in Jaga are in worse condition. And that is the last picture above.

So, am I done? No! Not in the least.

"Snake Pillars" elsewhere

The Snake Pillars are seen a just a few other dungeons. The first seen of such is…! That’s right, the dungeon which you go in on the way to the Eye of the North. There is a long corridor with those pillars. To the left, you see a golden statue of Melandru. In the corridor, you see a Dwayna mural (shown in picture). To the right, you meet Ogden, and to the right of there, you see a Balthazar mural in a room lit up to be fiery. Remember the statues of Grenth? With just two dungeons we now have four of the five (no, I will not count any concept arts of Abaddon with a scythe) “True Gods” – even with the unknown time of origin know that Grenth was and Dhuum was not though. There is also Shards of Orr, which has a statue of Balthazar – though this could be corsair addition, there is also an ice dungeon in which a mural of Dwayna is found. An interesting fact: There are no murals or statues anywhere in the Depths.

Through this, we can safely assume that one of two things occurred:

The original builders were worshipers of the six gods
After the original builders left (whenever that was), worshipers of the five/six gods entered and put murals and statues into these underground structures.

There are still more dungeons with these snake pillars. “But they are just pillars and the dungeons reuse textures all over” you may say. But I say in return: Of all the pillars usable, including some even used in the Catacombs and Sorrow’s Furnace, why use these? The answer is simple:

The other dungeons with these snake pillars were originally made by the same creator. So which dungeons hold these pillars? Unimportant! For now, that is. Like above, I will just link the structures.

In a portion of Vloxen Excavations level 3 (which is shared with Thommis’ level in Slavers’), we see more of those snake-pillars. However, there is something else: Pillars of the same design without snakes wrapping around them.

Cathedral of Flames

If there is any dungeon we can take for canonical lore, it is Cathedral of Flames, level three. This level, excluding the circular graveyard (which is still canon to the location), is used only in this dungeon. There are two distinct things to note about this: Most of the level is a giant singular building with no detachment from the building. This is the Cathedral itself, I believe.

Now, this dungeon has one singular distinct thing which makes it appear as the oldest of all the dungeons:

Here we see the pillars without snakes. This is the only dungeon level which has only these snake-less pillars. The reason why we can consider the Cathedral within the Cathedral of Flames as the oldest has a second reason as well:

Vloxen Excavations

Vloxen Excavations is, like the Cathedral, another dungeon which is canon to location. What we see here is the second oldest set of the structures. What is most special about Vloxen Excavations is that the second level can be taken with canonicity as well (though not so much in location, as what is there). Whichever group made these structures, came from northern Ascalon and traveled to north of Kryta. My support for this comes in a few notes and deductions taken in from the dungeon:

The pillars without the snakes are only seen in these two dungeons – thus, of those with the pillars, these dungeons are the oldest.
Vloxen Excavations is known to be ancient (from dialogue and the undead’s names)
Something had to trap Zoldark in this location, this same something, more than likely, would not stay here: thus, would spread.

Number three is the reasoning of why Zoldark is further away from the oldest structures than other dungeons are.

Aside from these pillars, there are two distinct structures in both level 2 and 3 of the dungeon (level 1 doesn’t appear to have any structures). Due to the lack of repetition of the area of level 3, and that being the level with these two different pillars, I’ll start there.

This picture shows an interesting object found here – what appears to be a reddish green stone levitated by some orange beam and a small pedestal. But that’s not the focus of the picture – the focus for me presenting this picture is the background (because I was too ignorant at the time to take a picture of those walls) which is of the same design as the Tarnished Coast ruins. These structures run along every wall in this portion of the dungeon.

Then those ruins run into another type of structure. It is not just here that these two are put side by side. In every dungeon in which we see these “Tarnished Coast ruins” we also see Ascalonian structures!

The above three pictures are in the same circular room: The room in which Zoldark the Unholy is sealed within. In the first picture, you see the snake-pillars. In the second and third you see two other things. Look familiar? Well, I said they can be found in Ascalon – specifically, the Catacombs:

If you remember the Catacombs, you’d remember the room with all the coffins. Another thing I’d like to point out is those coffins. Those in the Catacombs are of the same design as those found in the second level of Vloxen Excavations (which is also seen in Heart of the Shiverpeaks level 1, Rragar’s Menagerie level 2, and Ooze Pits) as seen below:

Going back to the fact that the “Tarnished Coast ruins” and the “Ascalon ruins” are always so close together, the best case is the second case: The same dungeons with those coffin copies also hold these two structures together. However, there are few cases of the snake-pillars (though they are there) throughout these dungeons as well. Below are various pictures:

The first two shows objects which are found in the Catacombs, the second of which shows the design of the “Tarnished Coast ruins” along with them. The third, fourth, and fifth shows the slight differences between the “Tarnished Coast ruins” bricks and the bricks found throughout the Catacombs, which includes the large tower-like amount of bricks seen in the fourth picture (in the picture it is tilted).

I would like to bring this picture back up. If you notice, you once more see those same bricks used in the Catacombs. This is yet another connection between the “Ice structures” and these other structures.

Another connection to the “Ice structures” and the others is the statue in the picture above. It is found in one ice dungeon map (which can be seen in Frostmaw’s Burrow’s third level) along with the “introduction dungeon” and Shards of Orr in the dungeon with a lot of crystals found. Though this could be a human-made structure (see: Origin of the Norn for an implication of how it got in the Far Shiverpeaks).

However, only that room can be singled out in Shards of Orr (the other rooms are shared with other dungeons or hold little importance).

Return to Cathedral of Fire

Some non-pillar structures which are seen only in the third level of this dungeon (though also very familiar to other structures) are in the two following pictures:

In the first picture, we see the common cylinder pillar, but the design seen in a loop is different! Compare to this picture:

In the second picture, we see a new “Tarnished Coast” like rectangular pillar/structure, but again, with a unique design. This design isn’t seen only in this dungeon, however. It is also seen in Vloxen Excavations and somewhere most people do not think of looking when thinking of the Depths (I only saw it by chance) – Boreal Station (the pedestals which we stand on during the hero training quest to be exact).

One final thing to cover with the snake pillars is Sorrow’s Furnace. In the southwest corner of the dungeon one can see a series of ruins. In here includes a new form of the snake pillars. These snake pillars can also be seen in the middle northern section which is half buried and goes off of a cliff:

As one can see from these, these pillars are far different from both of the previous versions. When the snake aspect the pillars are reached, the engravings disappear and the pillars underneath the snakes are flat. This is the only locations in which this occurs, and thus are the most recent of the structures seen.

Oh, Brave New Influences

Throughout various dungeons we see various Ascalonian structures, and these structures, while connected easily to the Catacombs, exists among things such as the Great Wall. These ranges from various designs mentioned above and even more structures.

You can see this good old face seen throughout Ascalon. This face can be seen in the Cathedral of Flames, Vloxen Excavations and a few other dungeons as well. In the picture you can also see more snake-less pillars (these are from the second level of the dungeon), however, the location of these two pillars are in dungeons which are not so sure of how canon the dungeons are (Arachni’s, Shards of Orr, and the dungeon orgy known as Slavers’).

This is from Sorrow’s Furnace the arch, the doorway, and the pillars are all Ascalonian structures. These are also excavated ruins which are next to the snake pillars mentioned above. The pillars are mostly (or perhaps only, I have not been to every corner of Tyria to be certain) in either Sorrow’s Furnace, or in the Catacombs in Pre-Searing. The pillars in the Catacombs:

The arch with the waterfall behind it can be seen throughout Ascalon, and in the Echovald Forest.

If you remember the Kurzick structures in Raven’s Point which I showed before, then there isn’t much to explain. However, something which should be explained is that with all those bricks which copy the Kurzick structures is something which is not Kurzick – the Ascalonian Gargoyles which are found throughout the Catacombs in Pre-Searing and the Catacombs in Gwen’s Story.

Here is a picture from the first dungeon (where one meets Ogden and Vekk) in the room where Vekk comes out of. It is riddled with Kurzick structures – pillars and statues.

An interesting thing to note is that the challenge mission “Altrumm Ruins” holds structures which seem to predate the Kurzick structures and are in fact the origin of influence of the modern Kurzick structures. This is not fact, however, but going on this in-game theory, the Kurzick structures were influenced by something. What is that something? Well, take a look:

First picture are bricks which match those found in Raven’s Point. The second picture shows the Kurzick gargoyle-like statue which is found in the first dungeon (both dungeon cases also have Ascalonian Gargoyles nearby), and the third picture is a modified arch of the ones which is seen in Sorrow’s Furnace and throughout Ascalon.

The pillars are also found in Altrumm Ruins, along with them are more modified versions of the arches.

Lastly, as shown here, there are a good amount of links between Kurzick and Ascalonian structures. Previously thought to be caused during the Canthan and Ascalonian contact previously made before Cantha went isolationist for the first time (see: Timeline), there now may be an entirely new reason: The structures of the Kurzicks and the Ascalonians were implied by the same origin – the structures now found in the Depths of Tyria and Altrumm Ruins.

This possible connection means that this race at least had influences much further than the continent of Tyria. There is only one such race which is known to have such a large influence: The Forgotten. However, the steps which exist in the Depths go against this. So whatever this race was had influence that exceeds the Forgotten (as the structures are used throughout the known world of Tyria).

The different structure versions

There are a large variety of structures used in the Depths – this caused a lot of skepticism on if the Depths can be viewed as canon lore or not. I have three explanations for this occurrence while keeping it as canon lore.

The different structures, like the different versions of the snake pillars, come from different time period. This is possible as the oldest dungeon (the now Cathedral of Flames) has no “Tarnished Coast ruins” while the second oldest (the now Vloxen Excavations) has plenty of it, the deeper the more, and that kind of structures are found in other more recent structures. However, the most recent (Sorrow’s Furnace and the Catacombs) do not.
The different structures come from different influences or evolutions. This implies one of two things:
1. There were other races around and the different locations are influenced by said races in the locations.
2. Like humanity, there were different ethnicities which “evolved” different ways and the only thing which stayed between the different groups of this race is the snake pillars.
The combination of the two: There were both influences, and the time caused the differences. There are slight differences between the Tarnished Coast ruins found in the CTC and Tarnished coast and those found in other locations in the Depths (Vloxen Excavations for instance).

The Catacombs

These structures are the best candidates for being the most recent of the Depths of Tyria. However, there is something interesting here. In just one area of the Catacombs we see a completely irrelevant kind of structure:

These structures only found in the area of the Statue of Grenth not surrounded by poison is the same structure found in the Rift – specifically the maps that lead to the Hall of Heroes and there are some also in the Underworld – in fact, the Underworld also holds some Ascalonian structures. This implies the creators:

Either had influences from the gods on their structures beyond a couple statues and murals.
Could have eventually moved on into the Rift and made those structures.

The first idea is more likely, though the second idea could explain where this race went. Or it could be a third option:

The Catacombs is in fact the oldest of the Depths and this mysterious race came from the Rift much like the Forgotten did, and built those structures before the Catacombs.

The structures of the Rift do in fact look older, so it is possible.

The Mysterious Builders

Little is known about the makers of these structures. A list of known information on this race (or group of races):

The race was widespread throughout Tyria and Cantha, possibly Elona as well.
The race predates humanity.
There are three cases of humanoid statues (see: Humanoid Statues below).
The structures include steps, so the race most likely had legs.
The race most likely had a strong control over the elements (questionable) and especially magic.
The race is not the Asura, Dwarves, or the Forgotten.
Best known candidate races are the Seer and Mursaat (more favor for the Seers as brought up at the beginning).
Best overall candidate race is an unknown, now-extinct, race.

New Observations and a Change of Hypothesis

A little observation I've found while vanquishing in Forum Highlands:

All found in the same spot, these are Forgotten (the first picture with the waterfall) and unknown (the rest) - something to note about the rest. Structures have the same design found in the Catacombs and the Rift (path to the Hall of Heroes). Giving an even more widespread giving of these structures.

Given this new observation, my new hypothesis on the structures is that there were multiple ancient races, all spread throughout the known world (and maybe more), and having lived so intertwined which they had shared structure designs. Meaning this ancient group of races were far more peaceful than the modern races.

I'd have to give a number of a five or six races. Only known race is the Forgotten. Dwarven is a high possibility. The different races' structures would be:

"Ice and Stone Structures" (consisting of Moladune and the Far Shiverpeak structures at least) - Guessed race: Seer
"Aztec Structures" (Which originates from the Maguuma, Kryta, and possibly further west)
"Ascalonian Structures" (Which originates from Ascalon/Charr Homelands and possibly further west) - Guessed race: Dwarven (reason: it is the most common structure of locations where dwarven artifacts are found)
"Forgotten Structures" (which is mostly seen now in only the Crystal Desert and Elona - possibly originating in Elona or around there) - Known race: Forgotten
"Altrumm Structures" (which originates from Cantha)

The snake pillars could easily be the best case of a combination of structure designs.

However, this idea is slightly changed. That is, the idea of the Ice and Stone Structures. Go to Glint's Challenge, what would one except? I would expect the same look as Dragon's Lair, but instead, we get this:

The place has none of the things found in the Dragon's Lair mission. But it is still within a shard of sand according to Consular Brand Oakencask:

This doesn't remove the possibility, but instead changes the situation. Those structures are not of ice and stone, but of crystal. Though, technically, still of stone as crystals are a type of gemstone.

Last minute add-ons

Basically, the following will be other observations that I couldn’t fit in above due to the flow of thoughts.

More Ice Structures and Ice Pillars connections, or are they?

A more strict connection between the ice dungeons and the Ice Pillar would be the above pictures. Notice the pillar-like clumps within the Ice Pillar, these are seen in a good amount of ice dungeons as well. But this brings up a question: Are these natural or artificially made? We can see these types of structures throughout not just Tyria, but also in the Underworld, the Catacombs, various dungeons, the Desolation even. Whether these are creature-made or natural, I’ll leave up to you.

But the thicker portions, however, are only seen in a handful of places – all in Eye of the North, and only in one location above ground: The Ice Pillar. The others are underground, such as here: The Central Transfer Chamber, where they are here in a very large amount.

Another location is shown below, once more, in Vloxen Excavations:

More connections between the Ice Structures and the other structures

This staircase, seen in a couple ice dungeons (obviously) is also seen in the second level of Vloxen Excavations. This suggests yet another “Ice and Stone” connection.

“Tarnished Coast” Ruins

The ruins in the Tarnished Coast match those found throughout the Depths, from the Vloxen Excavations to the Heart of the Shiverpeaks and the Central Transfer Chamber. One set of ruins found in Arbor Bay are also sunken a bit – underground but not in the Depths of Tyria. I believe these structures are of the same origin, possibly not as old though.

Humanoid Statues

There are three humanoid statues found throughout the Depths. The first:

These are seen only one spot (though three dungeons due to map sharing), but also have no known connection to other things. These may in fact be depictions of this unknown race. However, due to the lack of knowledge on both the origin of the Depths and on the statues, this cannot be certain. The structure of these statues:

3 fingers including thumbs
Elongated faces
Their head is elongated in the upper back of their skull.

The second:

(Picture is from Altrumm Ruins for closeness) These are seen in one spot in the Depths, but throughout the Echovald Forest, including the Altrumm Ruins which predates the Kurzick structures and possibly influence Kurzick Structures. The structure of these statues:

Horns
Wings
Else wise normal human upper body.

The third:

These statues are seen in multiple dungeons in the Depths of Tyria (none of which are copied over). And all three locations are impossible for a single modern race to go to and mimic the statue in all three locations. This implying the original race crafted this. The structure of these statues is perfectly human looking.

The relevance of these statues in comparison to the Depths’ origin is unknown.

Completely unrelated… ramps and stairs?

Of all structures we see, there is two which are only seen one time. And they are nothing like their surroundings. They stick out like sore thumbs.

Zanagi Kazuhiko · Sep 13, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Thats a lot of research that you put into..gj...

drunk n angry · Sep 13, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

awesome job konig!

Lawliet Kira · Sep 13, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Nice research you got there
i bet they didnt even notice these things when they were making the game lol

this is anet:

"He knows too much! get him!"

Konig Des Todes · Sep 13, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar The Element

Nice research you got there
i bet they didnt even notice these things when they were making the game lol

this is anet:

"He knows too much! get him!"

I'm sure I "added" onto some things here and there if this is anywhere close to the intention, but if I know too much now, I knew too much long time ago.

jonnieboi05 · Sep 13, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Very extensive research. I give you kudos for putting all of this together the way you did. ;P

~LeNa~

Gmr Leon · Sep 14, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Bah, nothing to argue here though, as all he did was lay out a bunch of screenshots and speculation, which we cannot currently argue for or against with the data we presently have.

And that aside, you would seem to have overlooked something interesting, which may be of no significance:

Blending statues.

See highlighted statues. Not sure what those are supposed to be exactly, but I don't recall having seen them anywhere else.

(Whee modifying post for transitory purposes.)

Konig Des Todes · Sep 14, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Thought I included those. Those are from the Kurzick area if I remember correctly.

Also: There are things to argue - i.e., main points of the research:

The Depths are of the same origin (i.e., race) - which includes the city of Moladune
The Ascalonian, Asuran, and Kurzick structures are (apparently highly) influenced by the Depths and thus this ancient race.
The most likely race being the Seers

draxynnic · Sep 14, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Some comments that have struck my mind reading through this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

direct your attention to the bricks themselves. Look familiar? If you played Factions, they should.

This as the only evidence seems a bit of a leap - there's nothing really distinct about that pattern as opposed to any other set of stone blocks. The reinforced corners might be a bit more of a connection, but the principles seem fairly universal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

(no, I will not count any concept arts of Abaddon with a scythe)

Why not? If we're assuming these are long-forgotten ruins, it seems likely that Abaddon was publically active at the time they were built. It may even be that these dungeons were buried as part of the coverup regarding Abaddon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Now, this dungeon has one singular distinct thing which makes it appear as the oldest of all the dungeons:

Here we see the pillars without snakes. This is the only dungeon level which has only these snake-less pillars. The reason why we can consider the Cathedral within the Cathedral of Flames as the oldest has a second reason as well:

What evidence is there that the lack of serpents means that these dungeons are older? Maybe it's a slightly different branch of the builder race, for which the serpent motif isn't so important. Maybe there are certain buildings where the pillars have these decorations, while others (prisons, for instance) may use cheaper, unadorned pillars instead. Maybe the serpents actually mark older dungeons, the design having fallen out of fashion over time. Maybe... but I'm sure you get the picture.

(I note that you've discussed the possibility further down that the pillars don't necassarily indicate chronology, but it probably does bear emphasising)

There's also the question of what they represent. Could they be representative of Twin Serpent Mountains? If the pillars appeared shortly after Grenth's victory and the gods were more active in the world than they were after Kormir's ascension, this may have become a popular theme. Or it could just be a homage to the Forgotten... which may be a contemporary if not the identity of the builders themselves.

Unendingfear · Sep 14, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Nice research, I really enjoyed reading it

Konig Des Todes · Sep 14, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

This as the only evidence seems a bit of a leap - there's nothing really distinct about that pattern as opposed to any other set of stone blocks. The reinforced corners might be a bit more of a connection, but the principles seem fairly universal.

Actually, there are two things. First, they are the smallest bricks in the game used, second, along the side is the "decoration" bar. If it were just the bricks, I would have just noted the same usage and moved on, like I did at first with the bricks used in the Catacombs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Why not? If we're assuming these are long-forgotten ruins, it seems likely that Abaddon was publically active at the time they were built. It may even be that these dungeons were buried as part of the coverup regarding Abaddon.

It's not because of it being Abaddon, it is because of it being concept art murals. Much like the Kurzick stained glass windows, the Word of Madness, and more. I don't think the murals have much canon value in the Depths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

What evidence is there that the lack of serpents means that these dungeons are older? Maybe it's a slightly different branch of the builder race, for which the serpent motif isn't so important. Maybe there are certain buildings where the pillars have these decorations, while others (prisons, for instance) may use cheaper, unadorned pillars instead. Maybe the serpents actually mark older dungeons, the design having fallen out of fashion over time. Maybe... but I'm sure you get the picture.

Mainly the lack of the serpent motif, then in Vloxen Excavations we have a combination of the two, which is also said to be extremely old (supposedly older than other Depths structures, though that is unknown) along with the differences in Sorrow's Furnace.

Due to Zoldark being a prisoner, and the place being highly detailed structures (snake adorned pillars, along with pillars without snakes, and lots of decorated walls (the "Tarnished Coast Ruins")), I doubt they'd go less decorations for non-prison areas. Except maybe dumps, but the only other place with pillars lacking the snake pillars is the Cathedral of Flames, such a big structure (which was at least on par with cathedrals) - probably something of importance as it is the biggest known structure of the Depths - doesn't make sense to me to go with less effort over a known prison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

(I note that you've discussed the possibility further down that the pillars don't necassarily indicate chronology, but it probably does bear emphasising)

I personally think it does, however, it could go the other way - that the order is instead Catacombs, Sorrow's Furnace, other dungeons, Vloxen Excavations, then Cathedral of Flames for earliest to oldest. However, in times past, an addition to pre-existing architecture was given as time went on, or a complete remodeling, that is until about the industrial age where we have our plain straight sky scrappers and whatnot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

There's also the question of what they represent. Could they be representative of Twin Serpent Mountains? If the pillars appeared shortly after Grenth's victory and the gods were more active in the world than they were after Kormir's ascension, this may have become a popular theme. Or it could just be a homage to the Forgotten... which may be a contemporary if not the identity of the builders themselves.

I brought up why the builders were not the Forgotten (no point building stairs if they didn't have legs, there are some ramps, but overall more stairs than ramps). The pillars representing the twins at Twin Serpent Mountains is plausible, but I don't see why it would be existent next to a statue to Melandru (a gold one at that).

Gmr Leon · Sep 14, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also: There are things to argue - i.e., main points of the research:

Alright, if you insist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Depths are of the same origin (i.e., race) - which includes the city of Moladune

We've not actually seen the architecture of the city of Moladune, thus we cannot say that they belong to the same origin as the architecture seen in the Depths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Ascalonian, Asuran, and Kurzick structures are (apparently highly) influenced by the Depths and thus this ancient race.

This is a problem of the chicken or the egg. We don't know what actual Asuran architecture looks like with certainty, thus we cannot say with any certainty that it is influenced by the architecture of the Depths and this mysterious ancient race. Also, we don't know just how much of the architecture of Altrumm Ruins is that of unknown origin, thus we cannot distinguish which is Kurzick and which is what they based their architecture off of. With Ascalon, we never saw the evolution of their architecture over time, and we have no evidence of any mysterious ruins aside from the Catacombs to even begin to suggest that their architecture was based off that of another civilization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The most likely race being the Seers

...And, we have no idea what any Seer architecture would even begin to look like, nor have we any firm support that they were the architects and inhabitants of Moladune, thus we cannot count this amongst the most likely without falling into the Grimoire Fallacy. That is, associating a mysterious race with likewise mysterious objects without any solid or firm support besides location, appearance, or scant evidence.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 15, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Alright, if you insist.

I do, since I would prefer more than just "good job" and would like others' views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

We've not actually seen the architecture of the city of Moladune, thus we cannot say that they belong to the same origin as the architecture seen in the Depths.

True that we don't see the architecture, but based on the description of the outpost, that is "a shining place of ice and stone" matches those structures in the Far Shiverpeaks as the structures, though not exactly looking like ice (i.e., the more intricate structures around the Raven Shrine and around other places), are still "shining" even with poor light.

Imagine if those structures were above ground?

Main point, if the structures are ever seen or shown, those structures would at least be duplicates of what the city of Moladune may look like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

This is a problem of the chicken or the egg. We don't know what actual Asuran architecture looks like with certainty, thus we cannot say with any certainty that it is influenced by the architecture of the Depths and this mysterious ancient race. Also, we don't know just how much of the architecture of Altrumm Ruins is that of unknown origin, thus we cannot distinguish which is Kurzick and which is what they based their architecture off of. With Ascalon, we never saw the evolution of their architecture over time, and we have no evidence of any mysterious ruins aside from the Catacombs to even begin to suggest that their architecture was based off that of another civilization.

Based on the CTC - which is believed (for the most part at least) to be Asuran architecture, along with the things known to be additions to the ruins in the Tarnished Coast, along with the designs and structures we seen for GW2, the similarities to the Depths ruin is too similar. So unless they were the creators (which is claimed on multiple cases to not be the case), the Asuran structures are based off of those of the Depths (and, in turn, the ruins in the Tarnished Coast).

For the Kurzicks, based on the wording, it seems as if nothing in Altrumm Ruins were built by the Kurzicks. As such, those ruins, all of which match things also found in the Depths of Tyria, have to not be Kurzick structures, whether add on or originally. Thus their structures, being based on Altrumm Ruins, and thus, possibly off of the Depths.

As for the Ascalonian structures, that is rather the hardest to argue for, due to the unknown origin of the Catacombs (unknown if it is of Ascalonian origin or not), but due to the re-use and even modification of Ascalonian structures, and all Ascalonian structures but the arches found in the Catacombs, unless the depths are based off of the Ascalonian structures, then it has to be that the Ascalonian structures are based off of the Depths. There are too many structures which are used in Ascalon in the Depths to be just reuse of models, and with the change in structures, again the likeliness of simple reuse is unlikely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...And, we have no idea what any Seer architecture would even begin to look like, nor have we any firm support that they were the architects and inhabitants of Moladune, thus we cannot count this amongst the most likely without falling into the Grimoire Fallacy. That is, associating a mysterious race with likewise mysterious objects without any solid or firm support besides location, appearance, or scant evidence.

Hence why I said most likely, and not outright putting the origin on the Seer. Of all the possibly ancient races we know of, the Seer is the best candidate, second best being the Mursaat. I doubt Forgotten (though the spread matches the Forgotten's), due to the large amount of stairs. Doubt Dwarven as it doesn't match the common day structures. Doubt it to be Asuran as above, it seems the Asuran structures were based off of these, not the other way around. It is possible to be from the Dredge, but like the Seer, we do not see their structures (if they have any), and unlike the Seers, they are not known to be a possible ancient race.

Honestly Leon, you're constantly disappointing me with this. :/ Only arguments you can think of "we cannot be sure" - but at least you aren't pulling out the non-canon card.

At least when I was introducing this stuff in the GW2Guru random discussion thread, you argued against something more than "we do not know".

Gmr Leon · Sep 15, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

True that we don't see the architecture, but based on the description of the outpost, that is "a shining place of ice and stone" matches those structures in the Far Shiverpeaks as the structures, though not exactly looking like ice (i.e., the more intricate structures around the Raven Shrine and around other places), are still "shining" even with poor light.

Imagine if those structures were above ground?

Main point, if the structures are ever seen or shown, those structures would at least be duplicates of what the city of Moladune may look like.

Or not. Again, we don't know how intertwined the stone and ice were, whether they were brought together as one in the architecture, or separately, as shown in the architecture found in Raven's Point. What I mean by separately, in this case, is that you can discern where the stone begins and the ice (or jade) begins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Based on the CTC - which is believed (for the most part at least) to be Asuran architecture, along with the things known to be additions to the ruins in the Tarnished Coast, along with the designs and structures we seen for GW2, the similarities to the Depths ruin is too similar. So unless they were the creators (which is claimed on multiple cases to not be the case), the Asuran structures are based off of those of the Depths (and, in turn, the ruins in the Tarnished Coast).

Asuran architecture is garbage, as far as I'm concerned, due to the nature of the lore we have for it conflicting with what we observe. It's a mishmash of actual Asuran architecture and remnant architecture from whatever civilization was to be in Utopia. Besides that, we don't even have a clue as to what are additions to the original structures found along the Tarnished Coast. If I've forgotten what was determined to be the additions, it's probably because I didn't agree with it in the first place anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

For the Kurzicks, based on the wording, it seems as if nothing in Altrumm Ruins were built by the Kurzicks. As such, those ruins, all of which match things also found in the Depths of Tyria, have to not be Kurzick structures, whether add on or originally. Thus their structures, being based on Altrumm Ruins, and thus, possibly off of the Depths.

So the Kurzicks, which are suggested to have been a preexisting society/ethnicity/civilization prior to entering the Echovald Forest, don't have any real original architecture, based on that argument. If you take a bit of time exploring Altrumm Ruins, you'll see that most of what is seen there is more or less in line with other Kurzick architecture within the Echovald. Due to this, it may be implied that they didn't put the effort in to make it unique, and we just have to go off of the lore and ignore what can be observed, or the Kurzicks have no original architecture, and duplicated the style of the ruins in Altrumm, and we may go off what we observe.

Tell me, which do you see as more likely? And not what you prefer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for the Ascalonian structures, that is rather the hardest to argue for, due to the unknown origin of the Catacombs (unknown if it is of Ascalonian origin or not), but due to the re-use and even modification of Ascalonian structures, and all Ascalonian structures but the arches found in the Catacombs, unless the depths are based off of the Ascalonian structures, then it has to be that the Ascalonian structures are based off of the Depths. There are too many structures which are used in Ascalon in the Depths to be just reuse of models, and with the change in structures, again the likeliness of simple reuse is unlikely.

Or, due to the amount of models used, it is far more likely that they are being reused. It needn't be that the Depths are all based off of Ascalonian structures, or that all Ascalonian structures are based off the Depths. Either-or arguments are horrid things to use in situations such as this. Or in your case, unless-then arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Hence why I said most likely, and not outright putting the origin on the Seer. Of all the possibly ancient races we know of, the Seer is the best candidate, second best being the Mursaat. I doubt Forgotten (though the spread matches the Forgotten's), due to the large amount of stairs. Doubt Dwarven as it doesn't match the common day structures. Doubt it to be Asuran as above, it seems the Asuran structures were based off of these, not the other way around. It is possible to be from the Dredge, but like the Seer, we do not see their structures (if they have any), and unlike the Seers, they are not known to be a possible ancient race.

...You doubt that it's the Forgotten, due to stairs, and somehow suggest that it is more likely to be the Mursaat or Seers. Do you realize the irony of that argument? Forgotten don't have legs, so I'll give you that, but the Mursaat and Seers float. Why would they need stairs?

(Speaking of..That raises the question of why there are stairs in the Mursaat fortress on the Ring of Fire Islands Chain, which, does it have a name we can use for shorthand? I want to say Onyx Gate, or something like that.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Honestly Leon, you're constantly disappointing me with this. :/ Only arguments you can think of "we cannot be sure" - but at least you aren't pulling out the non-canon card.

At least when I was introducing this stuff in the GW2Guru random discussion thread, you argued against something more than "we do not know".

Hey, at least I'm providing content. I could have been really annoying, and responded with: Insufficient Data.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 15, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Or not. Again, we don't know how intertwined the stone and ice were, whether they were brought together as one in the architecture, or separately, as shown in the architecture found in Raven's Point. What I mean by separately, in this case, is that you can discern where the stone begins and the ice (or jade) begins.

Is having the two together, in your terms, even possible? There's no way I can see the two being literally the same thing. Even if they are designed together, you'd still see where one starts and the other ends... Same goes with every kind of material... Only way I can see two different kinds of materials being the same thing by what seems to be your terms,

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Asuran architecture is garbage, as far as I'm concerned, due to the nature of the lore we have for it conflicting with what we observe. It's a mishmash of actual Asuran architecture and remnant architecture from whatever civilization was to be in Utopia. Besides that, we don't even have a clue as to what are additions to the original structures found along the Tarnished Coast. If I've forgotten what was determined to be the additions, it's probably because I didn't agree with it in the first place anyway.

The things which float and the "geometric generators" were deemed the additions - the later of which you pointed out. Which also appears to be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

So the Kurzicks, which are suggested to have been a preexisting society/ethnicity/civilization prior to entering the Echovald Forest, don't have any real original architecture, based on that argument. If you take a bit of time exploring Altrumm Ruins, you'll see that most of what is seen there is more or less in line with other Kurzick architecture within the Echovald. Due to this, it may be implied that they didn't put the effort in to make it unique, and we just have to go off of the lore and ignore what can be observed, or the Kurzicks have no original architecture, and duplicated the style of the ruins in Altrumm, and we may go off what we observe.

Tell me, which do you see as more likely? And not what you prefer.

What I see the the high possibility of re-used skins. That is, Anet didn't put visual effort into making the Altrumm Ruins looking unique. This could be due to the lore of the location being made after the area was. Looks cannot always be taken at face value. One needs to see where the lore ends and the game mechanics (or re-use of texture

) begins. That is my guess of where the line is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Or, due to the amount of models used, it is far more likely that they are being reused. It needn't be that the Depths are all based off of Ascalonian structures, or that all Ascalonian structures are based off the Depths. Either-or arguments are horrid things to use in situations such as this. Or in your case, unless-then arguments.

First, I want to get this straight on the reused thing. You are saying that due to the large amount of models used, that it is more likely to be purposely reused? Yes? Well, that's what I said. But I take it you mean, purposely reused without lore value?

That, I believe, is where we disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

...You doubt that it's the Forgotten, due to stairs, and somehow suggest that it is more likely to be the Mursaat or Seers. Do you realize the irony of that argument? Forgotten don't have legs, so I'll give you that, but the Mursaat and Seers float. Why would they need stairs?

(Speaking of..That raises the question of why there are stairs in the Mursaat fortress on the Ring of Fire Islands Chain, which, does it have a name we can use for shorthand? I want to say Onyx Gate, or something like that.)

I knew this would eventually come up. The Mursaat and Seers have legs. This means they do not naturally float. Meaning that in the past, the Mrusaat and Seers, maybe even as young beings, they walk with their legs. If they float from birth to death, then their legs would be extremely weak, and would be much skinnier than they actually are.

In other words, the two races have legs, and by all means should be able to use them. Just because we only see them floating (unless knocked down) doesn't mean they never walked.

Unendingfear · Sep 15, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I knew this would eventually come up. The Mursaat and Seers have legs. This means they do not naturally float. Meaning that in the past, the Mrusaat and Seers, maybe even as young beings, they walk with their legs. If they float from birth to death, then their legs would be extremely weak, and would be much skinnier than they actually are.

The legs on the Seer are tiny D: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Ancient_Seer.jpg
Also, your legs can get fat from non-use too.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 15, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Still, existence of legs means that at one point in time, the Seers and the Mursaat once walked. Or that every now and then, they do not simply float. Their levitation is via magic, I doubt that babies can use magic for levitations.

Unendingfear · Sep 15, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Their levitation is via magic, I doubt that babies can use magic for levitations.

Maybe they use their legs until they learn the magic to fly? *Imagines floating babies* o.O Still, if they learned it at a young enough age, there would be no need for special stair for a baby :/

Konig Des Todes · Sep 15, 2009, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Er... you missed the point, which was if they have legs, they walked in the past. Thus, there was most likely a time before when they not just didn't levitate, but couldn't. I.e., the structures could have been made (since they are from before humanity afterall!) when the Seers walked, and time passed on that their legs are different than they are now (as pointed out, skinny, and as can be seen in the picture, with elongated feet, not the best for walking, but would occur when they point down for long points of time).

Unendingfear · Sep 15, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Er... you missed the point, which was if they have legs, they walked in the past. Thus, there was most likely a time before when they not just didn't levitate, but couldn't. I.e., the structures could have been made (since they are from before humanity afterall!) when the Seers walked, and time passed on that their legs are different than they are now (as pointed out, skinny, and as can be seen in the picture, with elongated feet, not the best for walking, but would occur when they point down for long points of time).

Ya, I knew what you were implying.

But maybe the Seers and the Mursaat are two of those weird "statue" races. If that's the case, then there must be third. : o